FLASHING THE GUARDIAN -- A BOOKS BLOGGERS' REBELLION: The unheroic censor with a death wish
Part 1: In which Norman Mailer stars in an experiment in search engine optimisation
By ACCIACCATURE
3 February 2009
When Norman Mailer died in 2007, informed opinion – in the blogosphere, people who had read at least two of his books – was split. The army of readers who saw him as one of the most despicable misogynists writing fiction in the 20th century was perfectly matched by warriors on the other side, who raged that the label wasn’t just unwarranted but tantamount to heinous calumny. Before commenters returned to bitching-as-usual, tempers were lost on literary sites all over the net in debating temperatures high enough to bring to mind tiles burning off space shuttles re-entering Earth’s atmosphere.
After I'd agreed to a spontaneous suggestion by our good friend Sean Murray -- a pioneer and stalwart of the comments section of The Guardian’s books blog – that we re-open the debate, I found myself dragging my mental feet. The more I thought about it, the more it seemed as if the question was artificial. Whether Mailer was or wasn’t, if not quite a woman-hater, he was a writer so disrespectful of the other gender as to make the difference academic.
That the ‘m’ word never arose – as far as I remember – in what was said about Harold Pinter or John Mortimer when they recently left us, almost seemed proof enough of Mailer's guilt, by contrast. As some wise Navajo ancient probably didn’t say. ‘There's no smoke without a fire.’
Now consider last week’s sad addition to the ranks of recently departed literary names. There have been few summaries of John Updike’s life and career that have failed to mention how much he outraged feminists over the decades. There isn’t much room for fighting over whether he deserved to have truckloads of their rotten tomatoes lobbed at him – because of his own admirable honesty in answering the charge.
In the New York Times obituary Christopher Lehmann-Haupt wrote:
"Some readers complained about his portrayal of women. In an interview with The Times in 1988, Mr. Updike acknowledged the criticism that “my women are never on the move, that they’re always stuck where the men have put them.” His “only defense,” he said, “would be that it’s in the domesticity, the family, the sexual relations, that women interest me. I don’t write about too many male businessmen, and I’m not apt to write about too many female businessmen.”
Yet in trying to address this criticism by creating what he called “active and dynamic” women in “The Witches of Eastwick” and “S,” he may have made things worse. Some reviewers detected behind the author’s apparent respect for these female dynamos more ambivalence than anything else."
No one would conceive of levelling an accusation of misogyny or even of patronising women in the work of some twentysomething and thirtysomething male writers I’ve come across recently. Women most definitely do have brains as well as sex organs in, for instance, the manuscript of a novel I’ve been reading online in which the dialogue in intricately textured exchanges between the female characters has such perfect pitch that it’s hard to believe that a man wrote it.
If it were possible to reach them in the next world, I’d defy Mailer and Updike to write a passage that rings as true as this one does – after putting every last coin in my piggy bank on a bet that they, or for that matter, Philip Roth, could not:
‘We sly women are the world’s only hope,’ said Jan, ‘And not just any old sly women either. You can forget about yer Jews and Protestants for starters. And of course any woman who dabbles in atheism.’
‘You get them, man,’ said Bathsheba. ‘It happens.’
‘Here on the frontline a Jew is worse than useless,’ said Jan. ‘Very interested in everything, aren’t they? They like to find stuff out. Which wouldn’t be so bad if the stuff stayed in their big fat bonces. If God had no access, in other words. If their minds were not in fact transmitting and channelling every discovery back to the twit to willywank over his Godliness.’ Jan shook her head. ‘There’s hope yet in sly womanhood, but not if we’re Jews. Might as well be men.’
‘Might as well be men,’ said Bathsheba.
[…]
‘Still in deep denial about the Counter-Reformation, yer Prods.’ Bathsheba beeped the horn again. ‘The most comically perplexed souls of all time, poor things.’ Beebeep. ‘The ne plus ultra of human… Of human whit? Thingummibob. Whit’s the word? Cartoonishness? Am I toasty warm? Get us the thesaurus.’
Jan found it in the glove compartment and gave it over."
. . . If your life depended on it, could you imagine Mailer creating a female character with a thesaurus stored in her car?
Who wrote that extract? Well, oddly enough . . . Sean Murray, the lead counsel blogger defending Mailer against the charge of woman-hating in several threads on The Guardian’s books blog. That’s a segment of his mostly finished work-in-progress, The Adorata.
Why would Sean –- or any happy result of evolution like him -- bother to defend old 'phallocrats', as I gather David Foster Wallace dubbed Mailer, Updike, and others of their ilk?
I’m afraid that Sean is going to have to find passages of Mailer to quote for both the prosecution and defence. Like any orthodox gender-neutral blogger, I haven’t any of Mailer’s books with me, although I’ve been reminded in writing this that I must replace my copy of The Naked and the Dead -- unquestionably the greatest novel about war in modern times read by me.
But then of course it has no women in it – as far as I recall.
Part 1: In which Norman Mailer stars in an experiment in search engine optimisation
By ACCIACCATURE
3 February 2009
When Norman Mailer died in 2007, informed opinion – in the blogosphere, people who had read at least two of his books – was split. The army of readers who saw him as one of the most despicable misogynists writing fiction in the 20th century was perfectly matched by warriors on the other side, who raged that the label wasn’t just unwarranted but tantamount to heinous calumny. Before commenters returned to bitching-as-usual, tempers were lost on literary sites all over the net in debating temperatures high enough to bring to mind tiles burning off space shuttles re-entering Earth’s atmosphere.
After I'd agreed to a spontaneous suggestion by our good friend Sean Murray -- a pioneer and stalwart of the comments section of The Guardian’s books blog – that we re-open the debate, I found myself dragging my mental feet. The more I thought about it, the more it seemed as if the question was artificial. Whether Mailer was or wasn’t, if not quite a woman-hater, he was a writer so disrespectful of the other gender as to make the difference academic.
That the ‘m’ word never arose – as far as I remember – in what was said about Harold Pinter or John Mortimer when they recently left us, almost seemed proof enough of Mailer's guilt, by contrast. As some wise Navajo ancient probably didn’t say. ‘There's no smoke without a fire.’
Now consider last week’s sad addition to the ranks of recently departed literary names. There have been few summaries of John Updike’s life and career that have failed to mention how much he outraged feminists over the decades. There isn’t much room for fighting over whether he deserved to have truckloads of their rotten tomatoes lobbed at him – because of his own admirable honesty in answering the charge.
In the New York Times obituary Christopher Lehmann-Haupt wrote:
"Some readers complained about his portrayal of women. In an interview with The Times in 1988, Mr. Updike acknowledged the criticism that “my women are never on the move, that they’re always stuck where the men have put them.” His “only defense,” he said, “would be that it’s in the domesticity, the family, the sexual relations, that women interest me. I don’t write about too many male businessmen, and I’m not apt to write about too many female businessmen.”
Yet in trying to address this criticism by creating what he called “active and dynamic” women in “The Witches of Eastwick” and “S,” he may have made things worse. Some reviewers detected behind the author’s apparent respect for these female dynamos more ambivalence than anything else."
No one would conceive of levelling an accusation of misogyny or even of patronising women in the work of some twentysomething and thirtysomething male writers I’ve come across recently. Women most definitely do have brains as well as sex organs in, for instance, the manuscript of a novel I’ve been reading online in which the dialogue in intricately textured exchanges between the female characters has such perfect pitch that it’s hard to believe that a man wrote it.
If it were possible to reach them in the next world, I’d defy Mailer and Updike to write a passage that rings as true as this one does – after putting every last coin in my piggy bank on a bet that they, or for that matter, Philip Roth, could not:
‘We sly women are the world’s only hope,’ said Jan, ‘And not just any old sly women either. You can forget about yer Jews and Protestants for starters. And of course any woman who dabbles in atheism.’
‘You get them, man,’ said Bathsheba. ‘It happens.’
‘Here on the frontline a Jew is worse than useless,’ said Jan. ‘Very interested in everything, aren’t they? They like to find stuff out. Which wouldn’t be so bad if the stuff stayed in their big fat bonces. If God had no access, in other words. If their minds were not in fact transmitting and channelling every discovery back to the twit to willywank over his Godliness.’ Jan shook her head. ‘There’s hope yet in sly womanhood, but not if we’re Jews. Might as well be men.’
‘Might as well be men,’ said Bathsheba.
[…]
‘Still in deep denial about the Counter-Reformation, yer Prods.’ Bathsheba beeped the horn again. ‘The most comically perplexed souls of all time, poor things.’ Beebeep. ‘The ne plus ultra of human… Of human whit? Thingummibob. Whit’s the word? Cartoonishness? Am I toasty warm? Get us the thesaurus.’
Jan found it in the glove compartment and gave it over."
. . . If your life depended on it, could you imagine Mailer creating a female character with a thesaurus stored in her car?
Who wrote that extract? Well, oddly enough . . . Sean Murray, the lead counsel blogger defending Mailer against the charge of woman-hating in several threads on The Guardian’s books blog. That’s a segment of his mostly finished work-in-progress, The Adorata.
Why would Sean –- or any happy result of evolution like him -- bother to defend old 'phallocrats', as I gather David Foster Wallace dubbed Mailer, Updike, and others of their ilk?
I’m afraid that Sean is going to have to find passages of Mailer to quote for both the prosecution and defence. Like any orthodox gender-neutral blogger, I haven’t any of Mailer’s books with me, although I’ve been reminded in writing this that I must replace my copy of The Naked and the Dead -- unquestionably the greatest novel about war in modern times read by me.
But then of course it has no women in it – as far as I recall.
Nah, tweren't nothin' wrong with Norman. I just don't get how he's supposed to be this missywhoziwhiz.
ReplyDeleteI'm not familiar with enough of Mailer's work to make a judgement. I would wonder though - how developed are the other male characters in this book? I ask since it strikes me that a single novel cannot do everything, as it were. As a painting, perhaps, leaves areas darker to show others more clearly this could simply reflect Mailer feeling unable to say anything interesting from the 'female' perspective - and pandering as Updike has been accused, seems only to result in more hot water.
ReplyDeleteAnd for the most mind-bogglingly brilliant 'man as women through prose' re: Anna Karenina (and thinking of Karenin; Kundera isn't too bad either).
nb. this 'book' - his 'work.
ReplyDeleteatf
ReplyDeletehi isa
good idea the blog. thanks for the invite. havn't read any mailer - shame - so not much to say except good luck with the idea. i guess there must be something in it if it arouses fierce controversy. if i get to the library and pick up a mailer i'll be back!
me too. I have only read the first few pages of Armies of the Night.
ReplyDeletedes
I apologise for the dodgy comment function guys. Thank you Wordy for the engaging article.
ReplyDeleteWhich novel did you have in mind, here, Anonymous1 (as opposed to Anonymous2/@atf):
ReplyDelete=== I ask since it strikes me that a single novel cannot do everything, as it were ===
I think it works better in Internet explorer. If you are in Mozilla, then that could be the problem.
ReplyDeleteHi atf
If you haven't read any Mailer novels, @atf and @Des, how about your impressions of the work of the old 'phallocrats' compared with what Sean's generation is doing?
ReplyDeletePhil . . . kind as ever . . . but the idea was to tweak as many tails as possible. ;)
Deep apologies but I also know little to nothing about Norman. Liked boxing? Nemesis to Mr Grimsdale? I could make up some opinions...
ReplyDeleteBut this is a great idea and I look forward to the gloves coming off. Ding ding.
Where's Sean?
ReplyDeleteWhere's Sean?
ReplyDelete@BaronCharlus, how nice to see you here . . . a _lovely_ haiku about your snowball fight with your lady, yesterday . . . Why not roast yourself some chestnuts, pour yourself a glass of port and return?
ReplyDeleteWhat about other 'phallocratic' writers vs. Sean's avant-garde? . . . Or couldn't someone complain about a 20th-c female counterpart of Mailer's, Anais Nin or Erica Jong?
Just a sec, Phil.
ReplyDeleteWordy's sneaky approach to the subject here has blindsided me. Almost.
; - >
Hello accacciature and thanks for getting the ball rolling on this experiment, and also for your generous words about my fiction above. It might interest you to know, though, that the sequence you quoted from above has been accused now and then of being misogynistic (because, I guess, it involves a woman who isn’t particularly ‘nice’) – which brings us to the main issue here (for me): the massive overuse of this term and the harm that this has done to the feminist cause.
ReplyDelete“Whether Mailer was or wasn’t, if not quite a woman-hater, he was a writer so disrespectful of the other gender as to make the difference academic.”
Occasionally Mailer’s attitude to women offends me and I am certainly not here to defend it. But there is a word for his attitude at these moments and it emphatically is not *misogynistic*; the correct term – and bear with me on this because it’s kinda the heart of the issue – is *chauvinistic*. He looks down on women, he patronises them, he suggests they are somehow lesser than men. It’s ugly, and sad, and pathetic. But it is not misogyny -- *hatred* of women in general.
I’ll explain why this difference is so important in subsequent posts. This should enable those who haven't much interest in Mailer to get fully involved.
I find reading misogynists painful. I think it comes from being close to my mother. I could see how sophisticated and fully human she was. I could see the world through her eyes and yet when I read Lawrence Durrel or Henry Miller for example it is as if men were the only fully rounded, fully human people in the world.
ReplyDeleteI remember in one of his tropics he talks about screwing a poor female Jewish refugee and talks despectively about her.
I think that actually made me hate him.
I wonder about the hate of women.
Men rage and part of their manlines is to lose their top. You can see all the men who had read Norman Mailer were once teenagers and they wanted to know how to be men and so they read Mailer and Mailer had is narrative of ...what shall we call it...corruption?
One of the things my mother told me before she died was that certain kinds of hate and anger were healthy. Of course my hippy uncle didn't agree, but I agreed with my mom out of loyalty.
But now I wonder if there isn't a female rage that is symptomatic of a kind of maturity, just as there is a male rage that signals maturity.
=== But it is not misogyny -- *hatred* of women in general. ===
ReplyDeletePerhaps not, @Sean . . . which is why I split my hairs so finely in that sentence you quoted.
Last night I spoke to a wise and temperate older friend, an American, someone born about a decade and a half after Mailer -- who read everything he wrote in his youth.
What impresssion did you get of what Mailer's views of the opposite sex, I asked?
'Not good,' he said. 'It was pretty clear that he had no respect for women.'
No, he could remember no specific details, he said, but added, 'And of course he had something like six wives, didn't he, and look at the way he treated them.'
. . . I don't know how Mailer will ever escape this taint.
If every burglary is called a murder, pretty soon both terms lose their meaning.
ReplyDeleteIf every instance of male unpleasantness towards women is referred to as misogyny (definition: hatred of women in general) then that term loses its meaning too. And here's the rub: we *must* retain a term for genuine *haters of women in general* because they are seriously mentally ill and are very fucking dangerous indeed.
I've met three of them in my lifetime. I've met dozens of male chauvinists. I have seen men referred to as misogynistic (definition: hating women in general) hundreds -- if not thousands if I include the media -- of times. Clearly, there's something seriously amiss here.
This posters hyperbolic contention that "...if not quite a woman-hater, he was a writer so disrespectful of the other gender as to make the difference academic." doesn't instill confidence. Sadly, I don't have any of Mailer's work to hand, making it impossible to construct any kind of plausible rebuttal.
ReplyDeleteSo I must defer to Herr Prof. Von Obooki of the University of Disputation at Achen, widely regarded as the doyen of Mailer scholars and whose seminal 2007 work, Mailer, Misogyny and Late Stage Capitalism: Toward A New Synthesis caused such a furore.
In it, Prof. Von Obooki quotes the famous interview Mailer granted to M. Plorsible Soodanim, editor of Wachet Auf!, the German literary journal. I excerpt it here:
MPS: You have been accused of mysogyny. How do respond?
NM: Well, frankly, I loathe women. Stabbing is too good for them. Any man who doesn't stab a woman a day is a sissy and a tool of the matriarchy. In the '60s, I used to roam the night-time streets of Manhattan stabbing women in the ass with a cheese-knife. It was hugely satisfying.
Now, while one has to concede that there is some evidence of an underlying hostility to women on Mailer's part, nevertheless...
Oh, to hell with it...why bother? I don't frankly give a flying fuck whether he respected women or not. I don't judge artists by how many boxes marked "socially acceptable attitudes" they tick.
I judge them by their art and Mailer was a great writer...not always, but often enough to deserve more than dismissal as a woman-hater (an accusation utterly rejected by most women who, unlike the majority of his detractors, actually knew the man.)
Phil --
ReplyDeleteCould you (or wordy) maybe quote something that you regard as misogynistic? I'd like to see how you define the term. As I've indicated above, I think its definition is fundamental here.
mishari --
ReplyDeleteNaughty, naughty.
The believable texture of masculinity fabricated by Mailer in his work is dastardly. Didn't a lot of women spend an awful lot of time trying to deconstruct that narrative to themselves.
ReplyDelete"You enjoy being "taken"."
"Actually, I don't."
"Yes you do, you tease."
"No, really I don't."
In a sense femminism was deconstructing Mailer's literature.
In the same way, how can we read Lawrence's descriptive (adjective + noun)objectification of women without feeling alienated and wondering,
"But what was she really thinking. But what was she really thinking?"
In that sense there is a deep poverty there. It is an impoverished literature that can't sustain. Anti-dotes're necessary.
Very interesting post, Phil -- and profoundly true, I suspect. I mean, what you say about a man's relationship with his mother strongly influencing the way he reads writers who don't have much -- or any -- respect for women.
ReplyDeleteBut then how on earth does one account for Sean -- who couldn't possibly write so sympathetically and well about women if he wasn't more like you than the phallocrats?
=== But now I wonder if there isn't a female rage that is symptomatic of a kind of maturity, just as there is a male rage that signals maturity. ===
Yes, I think that probably comes when a woman has enough confidence to want to be liked and loved for herself, . . . and stops trying to be the best approximation of what she thinks will most please men; when she realises that that doesn't fool intelligent and perceptive man anyway.
. . . I wouldn't say 'rage,' however -- more, the complete range of emotions, of which _anger_ would be one.
Picasso had a bunch of wives and even more mistresses. By all accounts, he treated them all pretty shabbily. I don't know how Picasso will ever escape this taint. Perhaps Picasso's works and Mailer's, (and Celine's and Hamsun's and Jack London's and...and...) should come with a warning sticker a la Tipper Gore: This Work Is Tainted!
ReplyDelete@Sean and @mishari . . . sorry, but I must stand for my careful qualification, in what I've actually said. Only fair, innit?
ReplyDeleteI haven't called Mailer a misogynist. I only used the word because it kept coming up in the books blog debates after he died.
See my post about my conversation with my friend.
Not that I'm a huge admirer, but I always felt Miller's grossness (on most topics) was deliberate and provocative; in character. He seems to have had a rather mystical - if very male - relationship with sex and his affair with Anais Nin suggests that, at least in one case, he was capable of communing with a woman as an intellectual equal. Although I, too, found his prose wearying, like most US macho lit whether it's ironic or not. Who described Ernest Hemingway as a "joke only America couldn't get?" Was it Gore Vidal?
ReplyDeleteDoes setting Mailer as a misogynist rather than a chauvinist improve, redeem or recast him in any vital way?
As I say, I don't know him. Just leering ringside. Thanks for the hello, Wordn.
Meant to say, 'I must stand BY my careful qualification'. . .
ReplyDelete@theadorata
ReplyDeleteNow I admit that this is Time magazine, but anyway...
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,942598-2,00.html
"A little bit of rape is good for a man's soul," announced Norman Mailer in a speech at the University of California at Berkeley. While Mailer waxed outrageous and his audience enthusiastically heckled, someone tossed a burning jockstrap onto the stage and a prancing pair of Gay Liberationists got themselves busted. Despite the racket. Mailer held forth on his subject: "Richard Milhous Nixon and Women's Liberation." In the process he dropped such nuggets as "Richard Nixon walks like a puppet with strings controlled by a hand within his own head," "Most women have just started to think in the last two or three years," "McGovern is the only man who is morally superior to me." Finally Mailer invited "all the feminists in the audience to please hiss." When a satisfying number obliged, he commented: "Obedient little bitches."
But, as Misha says, that may...may...not reflect on his ability as a writer. On his ability to ejaculate in English, so to speak.
_Terrific_ post, @BaronC, . . .
ReplyDelete=== was deliberate and provocative; in character. He seems to have had a rather mystical - if very male - relationship with sex ===
I agree. And so, reading him was for some of us an education about the way another, profoundly different, could think and feel. For that reason, for all his flaws (lots of bad as well as good writing) I'd say he's essential reading for anyone young of either gender.
=== and his affair with Anais Nin suggests that, at least in one case, he was capable of communing with a woman as an intellectual equal.===
Can you be more specific, please?
=== Who described Ernest Hemingway as a "joke only America couldn't get?" Was it Gore Vidal?===
That's brilliant. I tried re-reading The Sun Also Rises the other day, . . . was a teenager the last time . . . and just couldn't take it.
=== Does setting Mailer as a misogynist rather than a chauvinist improve, redeem or recast him in any vital way? ===
Hmm, that's given me lockjaw of the brain. ;) Will have to think and let you know . . .
=== As I say, I don't know him. Just leering ringside. ===
. . . as long as everyone keeps checking in . . . :)
* * * * * * * * *
ReplyDeleteBy the way - re the google experiment
Type in:
* Guardian - Norman Mailer
* Norman Mailer - Guardian
We rank 6
So it seems to be working.
* * * * * * * * *
Wordy --
ReplyDelete'@Sean and @mishari . . . sorry, but I must stand for my careful qualification, in what I've actually said.'
Baron (hello) --
'Does setting Mailer as a misogynist rather than a chauvinist improve, redeem or recast him in any vital way?'
Hopefully I've answered both of these in my latest post. I feel that separating misogyny from chauvinism is, yes, 'vital' and not 'academic' (that's the part of your statement I disagree with, wordy).
Loads of 50s-80s lefties (like my dear ma the Commie) used to refer to rigtwingers as 'fascists'. It is my contention that this tendency has harmed our ability to tag a *genuine* drift towards fascism over the last decade.
'Wiretapping without warrants/electoral fraud/references to certain regions as 'Unamerican' -- these are fascist tendencies.'
'Oh you mean vaguely right-wing in a way you lefties dislike?'
'No... I mean *fascist*.'
'Right. Fascist. Meaning vaguely right-wing, yeah?'
...
My fear is that the massive overuse of 'misogynist(ic)' has similarly harmed our ability to discuss genuine haters of women.
'He's misogynistic?... Right. Vaguely unpleasant about women, yeah?'
'No, I mean I wouldn't want my sister in the same postcode as him.'
@Wordn
ReplyDelete"Can you be more specific, please?"
Night terrors call, I'm afraid. Will check in AM.
Good luck, all
Phil --
ReplyDeleteThose Mailer quotes are certainly offensive (and remember I'm not here to defend his attitude to women). But can you prove to me that any one of them indicates that he hates women in general?
===
ReplyDeleteWe rank 6
So it seems to be working.
===
Take a bow, Phil. This experiment is a deeply brilly idea of yours. . . The Google result means that we're proving that if we post often enough on each other's sites, we will effectively have moved the Guardian books blog out of its control, -- and perhaps have far more influence over what web surfers think on any subject . . . Quick, pinch me, someone, I must be dreaming ;)
It's not really that. I think writers like Mailer objectified women as a result of overusing using the masculine POV. They though they were being true to themselves, but who the F*** were they, really.
ReplyDeleteFanon would have been writing about them as people brutalised brutalised by war. Maler was no Kurt Vonnegut, but Kurt Vonnegut would certainly have understood Mailer. Isn't Kilgore Trout a kind of feckless antithesis.
"I". They fabricated a post war narrative of masculinity that distanced themselves from their own humanity and from women
* * *
ReplyDeleteWordy,
I am interested in the subject of Mailer now thanks to you and Sean. Like atf I am going to go away and read him properly. I like the idea of Ancient Evenings.
I like to approach writers sideways. But what puts me off a little about Mailer is that to me he is a little bit like Acker Bilk, my "cool" naturist grandparents were reading him.
wordy --
ReplyDeleteSimilar to mishari, I think I can account for my love of Mailer's fiction the same way I can my reverence for Lautreamont's Maldoror: sometimes great art just defeats my politics.
Maldoror is pretty much the anti-Infinite Jest. It means the reader no good whatsoever (though it does come on to the reader sexually -- literally; I mean the novel itself, the actual pages come on to the reader; a very strange moment) and is a hundred times more offensive than anything by Mailer. It's so hardcore (child abuse, child torture, you name it) that I still can't quite believe it's in my canon, but there you go. It's also the most blisteringly brilliant and funny novel I've ever read (Joyce etc not excepted), one of those once or twice per decade art annihilations of one's values that make reading fiction still worthwhile, just about.
[Btw I would really appreciate it if any of you could post even the briefest of comments here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0pvTdM8_AY
Cheers.]
Acker Bilk
ReplyDeletehttp://uk.youtube.com/watch?hl=en-GB&v=Q7jZeXvpyZQ&gl=GB
"Loads of 50s-80s lefties (like my dear ma the Commie) used to refer to rigtwingers as 'fascists'. It is my contention that this tendency has harmed our ability to tag a *genuine* drift towards fascism over the last decade."
ReplyDeleteExactly , Sean. Precision in language, please. The same thing is happening with the term "anti-semite". 10s of millions of people around the world, who object to phosphorous bombs being dropped on women and children are accused of being "anti-semites".
And the vast majority of them, who are no more anti-semetic than than Moses, are going to start thinking, "hey, you know what? If that's what an anti-semite is, I guess I *am* an anti-semite..."
Of course, the *real* anti-semites are loving this. It gives them priceless cover and that's what makes this kind of careless language so dangerous, as Sean points out...
a mailer is a big padded envelope,,my clock must be an hour behind you guys,, and the story of Jan and Bathsheba is really good and i have read it on several occasions in spite of a firm grasp of the reasons i NEVER read fiction,,the swimming pool cafe would not let me out the door when i first entered,,really good sean,,thanks
ReplyDeletedropinpotato3bucket4fireballxL5
Hey thanks for that, 3p4.
ReplyDeletemishari --
Amen to that. Short-term pointscoring leading to medium/long-term obliteration of one's very cause. It's a blog pandemic, man.
Here's a genuine misogynist:
http://www.theabsolute.net/misogyny/sim.html
Contra (almost) what I was saying above, Dave Sim's hatred of women put me right off his epic graphic novel Cerebus, because it came to dominate it. If *most* of Mailer's writing had been e.g. pro-rape, I'd have run a mile.
No. 6 if you type in "Norman Mailer, The Guardian", no.1 if you type in "Norman Mailer, Sean Murray". Bravo, Isa. Well played...
ReplyDelete* * *
ReplyDeleteForgive the aside:
Thank you people, I think we can say that that worked.
Congratulations to everyone.
My suggestion is for a 30 min to 1 hour flash blog in future.
And when we come to the end of this discussion, and I can see we have some way to go yet, then the question is who posts next and whose blog hosts it.
Sean I tried to post on the youtube thing, try later.
* * *
Now all Phil has to do is sit back and wait for the millions curious about Mailer and em... Sean Murray.
ReplyDeleteNaughty, naughty again, mishari!
[Thanks for your vid comment.]
I have work in the morning, so I better head off now.
ReplyDeleteAye, good on everyone who took part so far and well done to Phil for the idea.
Good stuff Misha?
ReplyDeleteA big thanks to Wordy and Sean, I'm off to bed and I'll check in tomorrow.
Perhaps Sean should do a flash blog reply on theadorata later on.
the first bot program to render all the posters redundant in this marketing exploit
ReplyDeletewill be online in about 15 mins,,its russian,,
the rumanian release will be about ten minutes later and even an english version probably by morning,,
israel already has one but wont admit it,,
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NotDesThanksGod
well, when it comes to finger pointing, I blame his mother for calling him Norman
ReplyDeleteparallax
..and I just googled - you're coming in 4th Phil; top two spots are with the g and third to artnet, that's with a NORMAN MAILER GUARDIAN search tag
ReplyDeleteparallax
=== the first bot program to render all the posters redundant in this marketing exploit ===
ReplyDeleteWeren't you at my site a couple of hours ago?
[helpless laughter]
Oh these Vancouverites . . . the thinnest of fig leaves, you'd think they were _begging_ to be seen through.
the "hater" spoke at a literary conference I was at in 2005; supported by two canes and a cadre of doting academes (some acadames). all the little lit-boys were crying for novel-writing help in the Q and A session afterwards...I'm actually interested more in the self-hatred he supposedly exhibited, not the anti-feminism. His belief or disbelief in himself seems a motivating factor for any sort of hatred of gender or sexual otherness.
ReplyDeletealso, how can we ever take public (or even literaru) statements at face value? the man was a known provocateur, mayhaps he found a particular nerve he enjoyed hitting?
elcal
dear thornygumtreesoundthingy
ReplyDelete=== the first bot program to render all the posters redundant in this marketing exploit ===
Weren't you at my site a couple of hours ago?
i dont get it ?? [helpless headscratching]
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mailer
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ETPhoneHome
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jul/18/blogging?commentpage=1
ReplyDelete@seanmurray
cant find anywhere to leave communication on your site sean and i hope you will return here,,
i want you to know Sean it took me 4hrs of (intermittent) digging to recover this name,,wrestling a vague old memory and google
so you better damm well like her,, the only fiction i have read in a long span,,and its got something that your Theadorata has (for me)
i got sucked in by the fictional telling of westcoast indian myths,,i thought i was reading a historical account for the first couple of chapters,, the last few chapters took many hours ,,i could not read more than a few lines at times it was so affecting
that one was 'Copperwoman'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Cameron
i then read the following three,,some thing says to me
you may be glad of this discovery,,
Escape to Beulah (1990)
Kick the Can (1991)
DeeJay & Betty (1994
i did not select these titles they just appeared like magic for a dollar each in the bookstore beneath my studio,, and the only reason i had first picked up copperwoman is because the cover art was done by the mother of a close friend,,
i hope fortune smiles on this continuation
there are many more titles,,
while the link posted above is of general interest to disgruntallites it was not intended to be part of the above post,,its the cif matt seaton blog on moderation from 7 months ago,,
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the preview window sucks on this template
TotallyOutOfNames
@dce,
ReplyDelete=== I'm actually interested more in the self-hatred he supposedly exhibited, not the anti-feminism. His belief or disbelief in himself seems a motivating factor for any sort of hatred of gender or sexual otherness. ===
That's really sharp. A far richer and more promising angle, I agree . . . will return to investigate further, in a day or so.
As for the canes -- someone said, 'Break a leg!' and you attempted a literal interpretetation??? ;)
Yes, @Anonymous/TOON, I couldn't agree more about the maddening preview window. I've been cursing it for weeks. . . [the sound of a departing disgruntallite ... off to look at that thread]
Problems are solved if you use Explorer and not Mozilla.
ReplyDeleteI'll hunt Anne Cameron down, 3p4. Cheers for that.
ReplyDeleteI'll just add my by now standard Mailer comment.
ReplyDeleteMy cousin was Mailer's PA for a few years when he did work for PEN ( such a male acronym! ) I hardly ever see her but by chance bumped into her at a family get together just after the GUblog mitherings. So I asked her straight whether Norm was a misogynist.
Her unambiguous answer was no - he was difficult to work with at times but not misogynistic. Of course it doesn't prove anything but she's not the sort of woman who'd take shit from anyone either.
If you've seen the documentary "Town Bloody Hall" where he mixes it in debate with Germaine Greer amongst others you can't help feeling he's just being provocative for the sake of it. What's odd is that he never seemed to come out of these sorts of confrontations particularly well either so one wonders what the point of all that willy-waggling was.
An American Dream is a truly vile book. So vile it inspired Millet etc to write/act.
ReplyDeleteRe-reading it now it almost seems funny were it not so embarassingly sad and yet many posters/bloggers seem to still sustain such pathetic fantasies of what it is to be a man.
In a word... pitiful.
The laughably dishonest characterization of the debate by anonymous (of course), to wit: "many posters/bloggers seem to still sustain such pathetic fantasies of what it is to be a man.", is typical of the hysteria that attends these discussions.
ReplyDeleteNo examples of this claim are given, but just as all critics of Israeli govt. policy are "anti-semites" and all those to the right of the political spectrum are "fascists", so anyone who argues that Mailer must be judged by his body of work is labelled a "pathetic fantasist"..
Pitiful, indeed...
Hey Baron - I think this one was yours:
ReplyDelete"Does setting Mailer as a misogynist rather than a chauvinist improve, redeem or recast him in any vital way?"
This is like when pple say that the new Mme Sarkozy - (ever so kozy Carla Bruni) slept with Mick Jagger - does this make her more popular?!
I go along with Misha - the guy could write.
Pple might like to take a look at Mailer in interview here on YouTube - he shines.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7LUkXab-og
Isa, you say:"But now I wonder if there isn't a female rage that is symptomatic of a kind of maturity, just as there is a male rage that signals maturity."
ReplyDeleteIsa/Phil - do you have the right word in "rage" being a sign of maturity? Wouldn't it rather be a loss of self-control? Or perhaps you meant righteous anger - of course righteous is rather a non-pc word these days with right-wing & religious connotations for some. I think your mum was right that there is a place & time for anger but not violence.
I think Mailer was trying to be "manly". Perhaps he had security issues. But his intellect was huge & he had mellowed - in a good way.
Here's more Mailer talking about (his book on) writing - his & writing in general & other stuff, too. I love the guy - at 80 he's dishy & amusing! What a mind. (it's after Ken Auletta - who takes up only 1/4 of the link)
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgiajE0rTlc&feature=related
We seem to be operating under the assumption that the male perspective ought to be legislated out of existence, but I say whoa! Writers have one obligation, to write what they believe as well as they can and to be willing to change their style when confronted with new insights into a puzzling human existence. Mailer certainly didn't keep An American Dream over and over as some critics would have us believe--his themes developed, his methods changed, his notions broadened into a more expansive art, as with Harlot's Ghost, Executioner's Song, Castle in the Forest, and his need to declare himself boldly, brilliantly, obnoxiously receded. Generally, he's to be admired for his refusal to shut up and to speak a cantankerous of the truth to the powers that continue to ruin it all; too many younger writers have let themselves rest lazily on the defeated sighs of irony. Mailer never did, and that is a large part why we're still debating his worth after his death, and sixty years after he published his first book.
ReplyDeleteHi Parisa, how LOVELY to hear from you. I was just experimenting with the idea. I know it could never be a Californian one. Perhaps hatred, or deep anger that you allow yourself to express is a sign of maturity.
ReplyDeleteTed Burke
ReplyDeleteI wonder what wordy would say to that. My response is that I always tell my students that it is only after they have come up with all the crap that they are going to come up with and their minds are empty that they really begin to get creative.
Did Mailer ever reach that point. I think we just got got some of the lazy taboo breaking crap that he came up with before he got to a point where he would really have to think.
Hey Isa - thanx what a nice compliment. This is a good experiment! I'm not Californian either but Bbbbritish throughout. I'm not sure about hatred or deep anger being a sign of maturity - in either gender. I think it's always about choices & that's it. I try not to hate - ever. It only comes back on you & can have destructive effects. Anger or hatred doesn't protect us - that's a delusion. I think tolerance, patience & compassion are the ways forward. Naturally anger & hatred are only natural responses at times but they can be harmful. I think it's a v interesting subject as it happens. I s'pose the thing of "attachment" would come into the mix, perhaps.
ReplyDeleteWhat you say about your students is interesting too. I would say their minds have to be empty to start with - in order for creativity to begin, that is.
Vis a vis Mailer - there's a link here to his book "The Spooky Art: Some thoughts on Writing" which I enjoyed so much. I agree with Ted Burke's 6:32 comment but whatever he was, he certainly was prescient & prophetic in his politics. Must say, I miss Mailer's presence in the world.
http://www.critiquemagazine.com/article/spookyart.html
I think every "good idea" is shown up in its true colours in a sort of escatalogical immanentising. So the dumbed down hippie idea of anger and hatred being bad for you has been revealed to be just that. Anger and hatred is not wrong when it is a just cause.
ReplyDelete99% of the hippies misunderstood the eastern religions they purported to identify with. They used them. They were users of religion, just as they were users of religious drugs - like peyote.
In the end ended the hippie generation monetarised any spirituality they had into New age objects for sale.
Of course anger is healthy in the right circumstances. It is salutory.
I am going to do a blog on it.
Two other seriously dangerous and wrong ideas of New Agers is that Money is Energy - the hell it is.
And that from Rablais to Crowley to the present day, the idea that "Do as thou wilt." Is a good idea, is like drinking pure Agent Orange.
(In a sense, I think, Buddhism itself built on people capitalising on a misunderstanding - in two ways)
"Of course anger is healthy in the right circumstances. It is salutory."
ReplyDeleteWhen it's for a just cause it's about justice. If it's not about justice then there's a danger it becomes about revenge. You sound a tad angry! I don't understand what you're saying about Buddhism but there it is - I'll look forward to your blog.
Mailer got rid over his sophomore slump rather quickly when he bombed with his weakest book, the bleak and by-the-numbers existential melodrama "Barbary Shore". Still, it was a credible attempt to establish himself as something other than a "war novelist", something his friend James Jones never shook off, and his writing from then on developed toward his own, mature style. The fact of the matter is that out of the forty or so books he published in six decades a writer, a solid handful of them are masterpieces, equally spread through those sixty years--"Naked and the Dead","Of a Fire on the Moon", "The Executioner's Song", "Armies of the Night", "Ancient Evenings","Harlot's Ghost" and, most certainly, "Castle in the Forest". The rest of his work ,of course, rises or falls in worth according to one's interest, but they are works as full of brilliance as they are with inconsistency. Through it all, I'd say, his thoughts are his own, the sublime and the ridiculous ones alike. He was willing to take the risk and accept the consequences, as he insisted he would on the first page of "Advertisements for Myself". I too, like Parissa, miss Mailer's presence, and I appreciate Alfred Kazin's remark about him that, given the times, the fifties and the sixties, Mailer was "a necessary man to have around."
ReplyDelete